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CW History Buff |
Army of the Potomac |
Lead | ||
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Why was there so many defeats for the Army of the Potomac in the early stages of the war? was it really the commanders or the constant bickering with in the White House that was streaming down to the field command for more agressive movement and action?
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moinfantry |
Re: Army of the Potomac | #1 | ||
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There were many factors that lead to a disasterous start for the AoP. Much of it, I believe, stems from the fact that the North didn't quite know how the South would fight. They figured it would just be a few months and they would put an end to the rebellion, but the South fought with much more heart and determination then they imagined and thus were whipped there at the beginning stages. Plus, with the White House dictating where and what the army was doing, all the way in Washington, they couldn't get a good grasp on the real feel of the battlefield. The constant fighting between the higher ups didn't help things and plus, there didn't seem to be many commanders who would fight. They were, in effect, scared of the Southern Army.
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keeno2 |
Re: Army of the Potomac | #2 | ||
Quote:Probably some of both. Being right there under Lincoln's thumb must generated enormous pressure -- even for the competent generals, if there were any. The pressure on the AotP might explain its lack of success as compared to that of the AotT which enjoyed a marked hands-off direction. Or the successes of the Western Armies might be in the troops. Or the generals. Interesting question, though. Should be good for some discussion. Ken |
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CChartreux |
Re: Army of the Potomac | #3 | ||
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The Army of the Potomac - in its inception and creation - was the largest field army in the U.S. Army. It was nearly eight times the size of the standing U.S. Army at the onset of the war. McDowell marched about 30,000 troops out to Manassas in July 1861; McClellan paraded nearly 70,000 troops for Lincoln in October/November of the same year. Thus, in three months only, it doubled in size.
Mobilization of the Union army marked an unprecedented military build-up that...not only had the U.S. Army never experienced...it was, most likely, beyond their capacity to even imagine. IMHO, going from a standing army of 15,000 to one single field army of 100,000+ in a matter of months is bound to test the capacity of even the best leaders and managers. It's just not something simple and easy to do - as though an army can be created out of thin air...just because. Moreover, even talented people often disagree on the right course of action. To this end (IMHO), while some of the AoP's less than stellar performance and problems are self-inflicted, some of it is the byproduct of wielding an instrument far beyond previous experience. IMHO, I don't think the AoP's initial losses can be narrowed down to simply one or two things (i.e., the commanders or the White House) - or even three things. It's a composite of probably many factors coalescing together - not the least of which, sometimes, is simply the fact that the AoP got some bad breaks. IMHO the learning curve faced by the Union army isn't sufficiently appreciated insofar as people truly grasping what it takes to mobilize an army...especially an army of unprecedented size. This isn't a play where everyone enters the stage with their lines memorized and their acts well-rehearsed and the curtain goes up and it's show time. They're going to have to figure this out as they go because they're operating in unchartered territory. Given that, there just simply isn't going to be one or two reasons why the AoP has a difficult time finding a gear - IMHO. CC |
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Missouri Brigade |
What about the competetion CC ???? | #4 | ||
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CChartreux
Greetings, What you say is true about the Army of the Potomac. However, you do appear to omit one important factor which is often ignored by Unionist adherents, so let me pose the question for you. Is it possible the Southern Armies had anything to do with the lack of success of the Army of the Potomac ????? I know such a proposition is anathema to most Yankee theorists, but it is a question worthy of at least an "honorable mention" in most analysis's, IMHO!!!!! (note color of emphasis chosen, we Southerner's do honor the efforts, memory and ability of OUR opponents Regards, MB Never let me hear it said the blood of the Brave Confederate Dead has been shed in vain.
NO!!!, I'sends a cry down trough all time!!!! |
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CaptainThornton |
Re: Army of the Potomac | #5 | ||
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Some good points. I would also offer that in those opening days of conflict, when the two sides were vrying to mass and train their respective armies, the vast majority of those men of officer status already serving in the US Army having had veteran status and having many of them actually served in combat situation in the Mexican war less then 20 years previous, by luck of fate were predominately Southern men of Virginia , South Carolina, Georgia and other Southern States.
As with any such massing of men there comes the need of course for a viable officers staff to lead them. As CC has mentioned the regular US Army at the time was but a fraction of the numbers massed mere months later. Obviously with such a small trained army coprs to draw from the number of experianced officers to lead them would also be small. Add to this the fact that many of those experianced officers chose loyalty to the South, and it is easy to see that from the onset, the North was at a disadvantage in the potential of it's remaining officer coprs from which to draw from. Both sides early in the war appointed officers who had no military experiance at all and recieve their comissions through politiacal and affluentail means. Though some would prove to be excelant officers, most would fall short of the mark and it would take a considerable time for these men to be systematically weeded out when it was realized that this war was not going to be a summers lark and that more concerted and viable effort be conducted. Mass armies larger then had ever been asmled lead to a large degree by incompetant men and couple with the other factors as mentioned by others earlier it is easy to see how the many defeats of the north happened. It would be 1863 before the north could effectually field a competant Cavalry force in the field to match toe to toe with it's Confederate counterpart. Again this is due primarily to circumstances. Not only the lack of competant officers but through the mandate of geographical location. The South being rural and agricultural, assured that it had thousands of men who were gifted horsemen . A fact which allowed them to gain the upper hand over their Federal counterpart on many occaisions. I will also add that there was one other very deciding factor in the over all of things concerning the two respective sides. The North, called men to its ranks to put down the rebellion As an invading force into enemy territory. The South on the otherhand was going to war to defend it's homefornt and fighhting on its own ground. Through out history any time and invading force has pressed upon an even smaller force in such a defensive position, the smaller force has proved a most determined foe to beat. It was only time and a change of platform to one of a war of attrition which would eventually turn the balance in favor of the north in the last 18 months of the war. In analogy we can see that there were a vast many factors involved. In final credit to the South, it would take all the forces the north could bring to bear against an ever dwindling army less then half it's size, close all it's ports by blockade and basically fight them until they could not hope to resist anymore that the North finally acheived victory. That in and of it's selve is why many military men of today still give credit and honor to the Confederate Amry and rightfully so. Regards, Cap'n |
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Missouri Brigade |
Back to serious discussion | #6 | ||
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CC,
Greetings again, CC, good natured fun in my initial response above (can't resist "tweaking you" on occasion), but seriously I think Cap'n made an extremely important point (and Moinfantry alluded to the same in his posting) when Cap'n posted the following: " In final credit to the South, it would take all the forces the north could bring to bear against an ever dwindling army less then half it's size, close all it's ports by blockade and basically fight them until they could not hope to resist anymore that the North finally acheived victory. That in and of it's selve is why many military men of today still give credit and honor to the Confederate Amry and rightfully so. " At the end of the War the UNION ARMIES were arguably the finest example of a war machine this Nation ever produced. However, I know of NO Union Commander (and precious few, if any, modern professional analysts) who didn't express the sentiment, when asked, that the Southern troops were man for man more than a match for their opponents. Even the beleagured Army of Tennessee was honored with the following expression of admiration (I must paraphrase the quotation because I've forgotten the EXACT phraseology, but the words below, if not a literal reproduction of the original, take nothing away, nor add nothing to, the sentiment as expressed at the time): " Never has a body of soldiers required so much evidence, delivered over so long a period of time, before they would accept that they were indeed truly beaten " I believe it was General Schofield who provided that testiment to the fighting ability of the main Western Confederate Army (but again I would have to consult my notes). Bottom line, the Confederate Soldier is regarded by experts as individually the finest example of a fighting man ever produced by the our country. Those who make that determination take nothing away from the Union soldier when arriving at their decision. So, I would again posit that the Confederate soldier had something to do with the lack of Union success during the course of the War. Regards again!!!! MB Never let me hear it said the blood of the Brave Confederate Dead has been shed in vain.
NO!!!, I'sends a cry down trough all time!!!! |
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Longago |
Re: Back to serious discussion | #7 | ||
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Another consideration is the mental side. Whoever won the first battle at Manassas had the initial edge.
When the north kept on dropping the ball, momentum took hold. When one thinks that the other guy is better, it's tough to turn it around. When was the first time that Lee respected a northern general? When did Southern soldiers ever fear the union command the way Lee and Jackson effected yankee soldiers? Just my 2 cents. |
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CChartreux |
Re: Back to serious discussion | #8 | ||
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Longago -
Excellent point. The psychological element can weigh in significantly and have damaging affects on morale. IMHO, this is much of what Hooker had to recover when he took command...and he actually did so quite admirably considering how far down he had to reach to pick them up. CC |
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keeno2 |
Re: Back to serious discussion | #9 | ||
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I've been nodding my head at all the posts made so far -- particularly Longago's. A good butt-whuppin, no matter how tough you feel you are, does tend to get in the way the next time you face the whupper. Then there was McClellan who all but trounced Lee during the Seven Days and didn't have the grit to finish it -- he robbed his boys of the victory and consequent confidence they had earned.
Subsequent poor performance has been blamed on McC -- perhaps rightfully. Throwing Burnside onto the pyre didn't help. As MB pointed out, Johnny Reb had a hand in it. We might consider, however, that the AotP fought on and occasionally well for three years. It, as pitiful as we might paint it, wore the AoNV to a shadow of what it was. (With a little help from the western armies.) Ken |
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kelly1863 |
Army of the Potomac | #10 | ||
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>Why was there so many defeats for the Army of the Potomac in the early stages of the war? was it really the commanders or the constant bickering with in the White House that was streaming down to the field command for more agressive movement and action? <
Several new authors have resurfaced the issue of military/political competency in their writing. Russel Beattie (sic) is in the process of retelling this tale. (Book 3 in his series just shipped from Amazon yesterday and will arrive next week). Ethan Rafuse has a new study on McC last year. I don't know that any of these book are definitive in addressing the problem of Republican command and control. The problem being that in addressing strategy both the political arm and the professional soldiery have to be sensitive to requiremnts and work TOGETHER to make viable strategy. (Like we aren't living with the same hellish dilema in Iraq right at the moment.) Winfield Scott had a very limited appreciation for the scope of the war. It caused the politicoes to doubt his reliability. When McC showed up in Washington with a larger sense of scale and operational necessity he was made General in Chief. But once he became General in Chief McC shunned the politicals and demanded absolute control over strategy trying to isolate himself from his bosses. It was a fatal mistake. McC's first challenge was to win/maintain the confidence and concurrence of the political arm. He didn't do that when he sent his father in law in his stead to make excuses for him. McC infected his command with a military effetism that challenged the political side of the national command. This created a false friction that remained until Grant came east. Juxtapose Grant with McC in dealing with Stanton and Lincoln: when McClellan had a problem he wrote epistles and achemed behind his bosses backs; when Grant had a sync problem he got on a boat and headed for Washington to sit down with his political superiors and ironed out the issues. The other aspect of the political military disconnect in the east was the initial lack of a warrior at the helm of the AoP. McC simply hated to settle things by force of arms. He constantly hesitated to fight. His victories were usually defensive. His one truly offensive battle was Antietam; he was on the verge of a devastating strategic victory and blinked at the moment of decision because he couldn't see the obvious signs on the battlefield. Burnside was a man of limited talents. In contrast to McC he really tried to please Lincoln. His muddle came with command failures within the ranks of the army because he so badly handled his campaign. (That and he had absolutely no luck with the weather - the man seemed truly cursed by God.) In failure Burnside turned on Halleck and Stanton blaming them for lack of support. Hooker was a wild card. Although a West Pointer he had quit the army. He had bad reputation for lack of self discipline; although his reorg of the army was brilliant. Hooker had the same problem as other West Pointers, demanding non-interference from his superiors. This unnecessary friction ruined Hooker after he failed at Chancellorsville. George Meade marked something of a turning point for the AoP command. Meade was a career engineer, but proved himself more of a warrior than his predecessors. Gettysburg was hugely sucessful as a bloodfest. What the Washington command failed to appreciate was that it crippled Meade as badly as it did Lee. Lincoln hoped for exploitation of what was achieved on the battlefield but the AoP was spent. Meade could do little the rest of 1863 as replacements didn't come, and two of his Corps were dispatched west. (Still Meade did achieve two small victories at Mine Run and Rappahanock Station.) You know, when you talk specifically about the Army of the Potomac, it really isn't tha case that there were "so many defeats". Literally we are talking about Seven Days, Antietam, Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville. (Cedar Mtn and 2d Manassas were AoV - Pope.) In the Seven Days there were 6 major actions; three of which were won by the AoP. Malvern Hill was so decisively successful that McC's generals tried to persuade him to retain the high ground and consider counteroffensive. Antietam was a win. Fredericksburg was a total failure. Causalties for the AoP weren't actually bad considering, but the disorder in the army was devastating. Chancellorville was a muddle. The troops thought they had done well and were perplexed as to why they lost. I'm not trying to let Washington off the hook for some very stupid things they did. One o fthe worst was Stanton's decision to demobilize recruiting in April 1862. The decision to split command and control into two field armies Pope and McC was ultimately a poor one, but it was motivated by a need to consolidate the forces fighting Jackson into a unified command. McC would cry allegator tears that having McDowell removed form his command caused his defeat; but in fact McDowell's veteran divisions were detached and sent to McC leaving McDowell with green replacement divisions from Washington. Sorry this is a little muddled. One key point is the need for strategic synchronicity between the national command and field commanders on strategy. Distrust between the civilian authority and the military professionals was a problem. There was no effective bridge. McC abrogated his General in Chief responsibilities. Monty Meigs would have made a fine General in Chief based on his past dealings with the political system; but he had no credentials with what passed for the line community of the time. The other issue is the "warrior' mindset. Lee and Jackson had it. (Even Bragg.) Grant, Thomas, Rosecrans had it. McC DEFINITELY did not. Burnside was just ineffective. Hooker is a bit of a qestion mark. For me Grant is the model. In spite of some operational mistakes along the way, his handling of the political and military aspects of senior command was a cut above everybody else. He turned Stanton's spies into his lapdogs (Dana), kept the press friendly, smoothed relations with Stanton and proved his ability on the battlefield. |
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Missouri Brigade |
Re: Army of the Potomac | #11 | ||
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kelly1863
Greetings, Excellent job of analysis provided in your posting # 1708. I have to agree completely on Grant. Grant knew the most important issue was that one could not leave an effective enemy army in the field. Thus, while costly, he knew that if he was able to keep up the pressure long enough, the ANV would have to eventually "crack". Also, except for possibly some of his early actions in both the Eastern and Western Theatres, Grant never made the mistake of underestimating the capabilities of his opponent. From the Yankee perspective it is truly a pity, IMHO, that Grant was not allowed to isolate Richmond from it's only reliable supply base, ala Vicksburg, by placing his Army between Richmond and the vital railroad links as he pleaded to be allowed to so do. Lincoln's fear about the potential danger to the Northern Capitol by advocating what Grant sought was unfounded, IMHO. By the time Grant was brought East and placed in command, the fortifications around Washington were so massive that I don't think there was any real danger to the Northern Capitol at all had Grant been allowed to execute his desired option. Grant's vision for how to conduct that campaign against Richmond which never came about was brilliant, IMHO. From a Northern perspective, it's a pity Lincoln proved so timid on the occasion when Grant argued for his initial strategy. I think the war could have been over in 1864 had Grant convinced Lincoln of letting him get between Richmond and the Carolina's. Of course, one can also argue that had the Petersburg defenses been assaulted when initially encountered, instead of being paused in front of, and giving the Southern forces time to react, then the "dam" would have burst and it would have been basically free sailing into Richmond in 1864. One point you allude to, but are somewhat subtle about with Grant was his total lack of political ambition when compared with the rest of the Union Commanders of the main Federal Army(s). THAT went a long long way towards Grant being able to drop everything, come to Washington for a "chat" and leave with virtually whatever it was he came for intact. It's sorta ironic that the Union General with arguably the best political skills, possessed one of the lowest ratings on the "political maneurvering for personal gain" meter's of any Union General. In that respect, the Union was fortunate to have Grant and Sherman (who also possessed some of the same characteristics) in the positions they held. On Little Mac, yes it seemed he was afraid to risk actually achieving an offensive victory. But a considerable case can be made that he felt, and was supported in this judgement, that his ultimate responsibility in 1862 was to defend the Capitol of Washington DC. And to give Little Mac his due, arguably he was the General most responsible for the final victory of the AoP. Little Mac forged a potent fighting force out of raw recruits, and kept their morale and fighting spirit intact. Burnside and Pope (yes I know Pope was AoV) were miscast in their roles. The former, a decent man who was too eager to please his political masters. IMHO, the embodiment of the "Peter Principle". The latter, an egotistical SOB who actually was not afraid to fight, but who had absolutely NO political acumen at all, and who continuously demonstrated his brilliant lack of tact. Enough said, IMHO. Hooker, I've always been intrigued by. Many forget that Hooker anticipated Lee's late June 1863 movements brilliantly and set the AoP in motion toward it's great engagement at Gettysburg. It was Hooker's plan basically that enabled Meade to come to grips with Lee, and send Lee forever back accross the Potomac. Had Hooker been able to keep his ego in check, it would have been Lee versus Hooker at Gettysburg. Meade I honestly don't know that much about. I do think the expectations placed on him by Lincoln post Gettsyburg were unrealistic. And you are "spot on" when you mention the AoP's temporary lack of combat ability after July 5, 1863. I agree with you that few actually realize that the AoP was almost destroyed at Gettysburg, and this after having almost every battlefield advantage one could have wished for. The only disagreement I have with your comments on the Warrior mindset was where you place a question mark by Hooker. I do think he had the mindset. I think he was unlucky at Chancellorsville. But, would Hooker ultimately have been able to develop and execute Grand Strategy ala Grant? NO, NO, a thousand times NO, IMHO. To me, although strictly speaking I'm violating the question asked on this thread, an individual whom has always fascinated me from the Union perspective is Halleck. I include Halleck when discussions of the AoP come up because of the influence Halleck had on ALL Union Armies due to the position he held. As a field commander, Halleck was severely lacking, IMHO. His political maneurverings have been widely criticized once he was placed on permanent "desk duty" in Washington. But through it all Halleck actually managed to demonstrate some considerable strategic and logistic abilities that actually were of great benefit to the Union cause. I do think the Union would have sorely missed Halleck had he not been "in place" in Washington DC during 1863 to 1865. I guess I agree with T. Harry Williams that Halleck's abilities, and results, have not been accorded the recognition he was due, despite the man's many faults. Regards, MB Never let me hear it said the blood of the Brave Confederate Dead has been shed in vain.
NO!!!, I'sends a cry down trough all time!!!! |
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jonathanfritz1968 |
Re: Army of the Potomac | #12 | ||
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Glad Kelly straightened out the myth of repreated AOP defeats on the field of battle. And glad Cap'n pointed out the difficulty of being always on the offense. With regard to Hooker, let's not forget the guy had a severe concussion at Chancellorsville sustained when a cannonball hit a post he was leaning against. He didn't mind mixing things up, but with his head a bowl of soup, it's not surprising he flinched when Stonewall came crashing into his flank. On Mac, he was not the only man in the US Army with great organizational skills. He was very good that way, but not indispensable. Hooker, for example, was a heck of an organizer. And the ONLY reason the AOP's battlefield successes were not converted into strategic benefit during the Peninsula Campaign is because McC was a total wussy who magnified every Confederate platoon into a division or two. The blame for that campaign rests solely on his shoulders, IMO.
Cheers - Jonathan |
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Missouri Brigade |
Re: Army of the Potomac | #13 | ||
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jonathanfritz1968
Greetings, I do agree with you when you state: " Glad Kelly straightened out the myth of repreated AOP defeats on the field of battle" I do concede they were part of an general overall trend of Union defeats in many theatre's from July 1861 to July 1863. But then I suppose you will contend that it was all a tactic of the Union attempting to lure the Confederacy into a false sense of confidence that they could actually prevail on the field of battle I do admire your consistency though!!!!!!! Regards my friend, MB Never let me hear it said the blood of the Brave Confederate Dead has been shed in vain.
NO!!!, I'sends a cry down trough all time!!!! |
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bloviator |
Antietam a Win? | #14 | ||
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Antietam was a win to the extent that the AoNV left the field, but it was a truly botched opportunity to destroy the AoNV and end the war. McC had more than twice Lee's 40,000 men and yet never had more than 20,000 actually fighting at one time (he always wanted a big reserve, since he constantly thought he was outnumbered). Had he punched through the center after the gains at Bloody Lane instead of pissing away his numerical advantage, it would have been a smashing Union victory rather than practically a draw. (IMHO)
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Missouri Brigade |
Re: Antietam a Win? | #15 | ||
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bloviator
You posted: " Had he punched through the center after the gains at Bloody Lane instead of pissing away his numerical advantage, it would have been a smashing Union victory rather than practically a draw. (IMHO) " My reply: IMHO, you understate the situation. The Army of Northern Virginia was never so close to demolition as it was when Longstreet, D.H. Hill, and precious few others stood in the middle of the line awaiting the Federal advance that thankfully (from my ancestor's perspective) never came. IF one presupposes that the capture of Richmond was the prize that determined who won, then the North was within a few hard days march of winning had the attack against the center been resumed, IMHO. I just don't see what was available, from a Confederate force's perspective, to stop the Union from advancing vitually unopposed to the very gates of Richmond, and beyond. Regards, MB Never let me hear it said the blood of the Brave Confederate Dead has been shed in vain.
NO!!!, I'sends a cry down trough all time!!!! |
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bloviator |
Right you Are | #16 | ||
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So, MB, you might even say that by staying on the field one extra day with 25% of his men gone and no ammunition, Lee was sort of staring down McC...At any rate, at best a partial victory for the AoP...
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moinfantry |
Re: Right you Are | #17 | ||
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To me, the goal of the AoP at Antietam was to keep Lee from getting too far North. Remember, he started an invasion and it was up to the AoP to stop him from going too far ahead. I would of liked to see what Grant could of done against Lee at Antietam, perhaps it would be remember for something other than the bloodiest 1 day in the CW.
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bloviator |
Antietam | #18 | ||
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OK--The goal of the AoP was to keep Lee from getting too far north, but was not Lee already moving back south by that time, choosing to stop and give battle just to prove the point that he had not been run out of Maryland without a scrap?
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Missouri Brigade |
Re: Right you Are | #19 | ||
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moinfantry and bloviator,
Greetings, By the time Sharpsburg rolled around, Lee's aim was to keep the ANV intact to fight another day. Lee also hoped to be able to at least capitalize somewhat on the capture of Harper's Ferry before retreating back across the Potomac. The discovery of the copy of Lee's orders by the Union troops had put paid to hopes for any other successful outcome from Lee's vantage point concerning the invasion. As far as Lee's original strategy, the venture into Maryland was primarily to try and entice greater support from Maryland to the Southern cause. Also, Lee was responding to Confederate political hopes for an impressive showing on Northern soil to solidify any pending European recognition that the foreign nations might have been contemplating (England had already decided in Cabinet to recommend formal recognition to the House of Common's prior to the invasion, not that the South would have known that). If the South had tried, they couldn't have picked a worse location in the State of Maryland from which to launch their invasion. At the best of times from a Southern political viewpoint, the part of Maryland chosen as the launchpad for Lee's plan was not fertile recruiting ground for the Confederacy. Little Mac certainly viewed his primary role as being the repelling of Lee's invasion, versus the attempted destruction of the ANV. Little Mac was genuinely perplexed as to why Lincoln was unhappy with the Sharpsburg result. Regards, MB Never let me hear it said the blood of the Brave Confederate Dead has been shed in vain.
NO!!!, I'sends a cry down trough all time!!!! |
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moinfantry |
Re: Right you Are | #20 | ||
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It always interested me the fact that while the CW was in the South, the AoP did not help it's cause too much, they couldn't win a darned thing just about. Once they passed that line into the North, then the Yanks did us proud by chasing away the Rebel invaders. Thanks to the AoP lousy commanders though, Antietam (which is the real way to say it MB
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