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JD1963 |
Gen Bee's famous quote |
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I have heard from childhood how General Thomas J Jackson earned the moniker "Stonewall" at 1st Manasas. I have read many accounts of this, however I am somewhat confused now. I have recently read an account given by Gen D.H. Hill Gen Jackson's brother in law that claims that the story was a myth and that it was concocted by a newspaper reporter. Gen Hill states that Bee never said any such thing, because Gen Jackson was anything but still in the heat of battle. He is quoted as saying "he (Jackson) would swoop down on his prey like an eagle" so such a nickname was obsurd. Can someone please give me some insight as to why Gen Hill would say such a thing when history says different?
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dragoon |
Re: Unknown | #8 | ||
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"There stands Jackson like a stonewall, rally on the Virginians." So supposedly were the last words of Colonel Barnard Bee who was attempting to rally his broken brigade at Henry Hill. Historians have debated whether this was said and what did it mean ever since.
Bee's brigade was being shelled by two Union batteries (Griffin and Rickett) that had advanced to the hill and were raining lead down on Bee's men. He rode back to Jackson and asked for aid. Jackson assured Bee that he would advance his brigade. Bee then rode back to rally his men. He saw Jackson's men coming forward. The Yankee gunners also saw Jackson and began to fire at them. At this point Jackson ordered his men to take cover from the shelling. When Bee saw this he was furious and made his statement about Jackson, having taken cover, standing there like a stationary stonewall. Soon after this statement by Bee, Jackson heroially chraged and captured Henry Hill. Bee died the next day of wounds. His adjutant was furious and made hostile statements to the Richmond press about Jackson, hero or not, inaction having left Bee's men to their fate. Southern spin masters were quick to pin the title of Stonewall upon their new found hero. Thomas Jackson seems to have detested the title. A stonewall is something that you defend behind, such as at Frederickburg. For what it is worth, I tend to think that Bee made his statement out of anger and not as a complement to Thomas Jackson. Dragoon |
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blueridge |
Re: Unknown | #9 | ||
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I've always heard that Jackson kept his men just over the crest of the hill to keep them from being exposed to enemy fire until the bluecoats came within their range...at which point they blasted them back down the hill...and at some point they went over on the offensive and drove the yanks back...whether or not Bee was admiring the staunchness of the Virginians or frustrated at them for not advancing to his position is a moot point....TJ Jackson had his men in the right place to stop the Union offensive and counter-attacked them in a superb manner and helped win the battle. Bee had gotten himself in a tight spot and anybody who thinks Jackson should have come down off the hill and joined him in that disjointed, disorganized donnybrook in which the weight of numbers in favor of the Union would have eventually carried the feild instead of using the terrain to assist his men in shattering the Union attack is just silly.
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dragoon |
Re: Unknown | #10 | ||
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Blueridge
A point well taken. But in Barnard Bee's mind, Old Blue Light Jackson had promised to come fast to his aid, started to do so, and then took cover. I believe that Bee mistakenly felt that Jackson had left him to be slaughtered and was (rightfully) furious at the time he referred to Jackson as "Stonewall." What is interesting is that the various contemporary accounts of the battle are so confused that one cannot tell whether Jackson paused very long and/or whether he was first attacked by Union infantry. The issue that has long interested me is whether the appellation "Stonewall" was meant by the lamented Colonel Bee to be a criticism of Jackson's tactics. |
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Missouri Brigade |
Re: Unknown | #11 | ||
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dragoon
Greetings, Haven't had the pleasure of corresponding with you in quite some time. Hope everything is well. I make no pretense at being an expert on this particular subject, however, IMHO, I tend to think General Bee may have been complaining that Jackson was not coming quickly enough to his support, which could be a criticism of his tactic's. However, on closer examination, I'm not sure the "facts" would support such criticism. General Jackson's reputation isn't one which maintains that Jackson was known for the stubborn holding of a position (i.e., stalling) or for an unwillingness to enter the fray. Thus I discount any version which implies that Jackson was deliberately stalling and/or not trying to engage the enemy. IMHO, the nickname stems from what would become Jackson's reputation for displaying a normally unperterbable temperament under fire. Such "calmness" can be misinterperted as stalling tactics by someone who is depending on Jackson for quick immediate action to relieve enemy pressure on their particular unit. Misinterpretation is even more likely when such conduct is seen for the first time in a battle thats happening during the early stages of a conflict. I think a reaction to that "calmness" is what Bee was referring to when he saw Jackson that day. I feel Bee felt Jackson's actions underfire were too slow in coming to his relief. Bee became frustrated because, in his viewpoint Jackson wasn't rapidly moving to support him. Couple this with an observation that the individual you (Bee) are depending on to move to your asssistance doesn't seem to be aware of how badly you need those reinforcements, and it is not too hard to see why Bee was frustrated. Thus, Bee states the by now famous phrase. In that type of scenario Bee would indeed be criticising Jackson, and given the old adage that perception is reality, would have been perfectly justified in doing so, even if ultimately Bee's judgement turned out to be erroneous. I agree whole-heartedly with your assessment of how confusing the contemporary accounts of the battle are, and not just on this particular subject. Seems as times that the after action accounts are exceeded only by the actual battle itself in the confusion area. Regards, Missouri Brigade |
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dragoon |
Re: Unknown | #12 | ||
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Greetings Misouri Brigade
I completely agree with your observation that Tom Jackson acted properly when he had his men take cover. Likewise, he was a highly competent general who was not going to blindly march his men lock step into a slaughter pen. Assuming for the moment Barnard Bee said what he did, one must look at the statement from Bee's perilious perspective. With his men steadly being cut to bits by Yankee shot and shell and with a promise firmly in hand that he would be immediately supported by Tom Jackson's Virginia brigade and then seeing the same Virginians hit the ground to avoid being struck by shell and shot, must have made Bee one very angry fellow. He was in this state of mind when he uttered these famous words about Jackson standing there like a (damn) stonewall. My point remains that the title "Stonewall" was not intended by the late Bee to be compliment to the bravery of Thomas Jackson and it was the rebel spin masters who turned what was an obvious insult into something very grand. Stonewall might have been better pinned upon Andrew Jackson's for his vaunted defense of New Orleans. Sic transit gloria. Dragoon |
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Missouri Brigade |
Re: Unknown | #13 | ||
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dragoon
Greetings, I'm in complete agreement with you about Bee's statement not being complimentary when uttered, and also that it became an example of excellent spin to turn it into a "positive" reflection on Jackson versus a negative. If I gave the impression I was disputing your position I apologize because I was actually trying to support your argument. My only "tweaking" of what you posted is to theorize that had Bee lived, and become apprised of the entire situation, his "anger" would have dissipated, IMHO, and he would have looked more favorably upon Jackson than what his very understandable quote appears to demonstrate. However, this "tweaking" is pure speculation on my part, and bigger fueds have resulted from much smaller incidents than what Bee experienced from Jackson in this instance. Regards, Missouri Brigade |
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dragoon |
Re: Unknown | #14 | ||
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Missouri Brigade
Those rebel spin masters would make the current crop envious. A wonderful collection of Mexican War era drawings and verse, the latter by the fallen Bee may be found on the web at libraries.uta.edu/speccol...eepoem.htm There is also a squibb on him in the Fall 2004 edition of Military Collector & Historian. Dragoon |
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Pvt Gaus |
Re: Gen Bee's famous quote | #15 | ||
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Compliments,
Don`t know anything of your Harvey Hill story, My main concern is if Gen. Bee was raging on Thomas Jackson or giving him praise. Bee`s boys were getting beat up pretty good at the time. Possibly T.J. jackson , laying on the ground and waiting,(not T.J.) personally. And then standing when it was "Right". Gave him the monicor. Or perhaps Bee was reffering to T.J. , doing knowing at all??? And holding things upmlike a stone wall. Bee died very soon after. Gallatly. gaus |
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dragoon |
Re: Gen Bee's famous quote | #16 | ||
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This debate has been going on since the day that Barnard Bee (USMA 1845) uttered his statement, 21 July 1861, and it was first reported in the Southern Literary Messenger for 2 August 1861. Bee's adjutant steadfastly maintained that the term "Stonewall" was not made in praise of Jackson. (See generally, Douglas Southall Freeman, Lee's Lieutenants: A Study in Command, 1:733-734.) It remains unclear whether the Union artillery on Henry Hill was captured by Bee's Alabamans or Jackson's Virginians or both.
Dragoon |
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